Curse

Darksci · Aug 08, 2005, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Well no offence, but even when i didn't have the 105 Smite build, i still had enough money. This was before i farmed, and i spent my money wisely.

I started playing the game properly after my exams in June. By the time my monk finished the game for the first time, i had 30K in the vault. This was all from missions and salavaging items.

ALSO this was before i started farming. I think the reason why you don't have the money is that your not spending it wisely. On my ranger for example, i never brought any armor after old ascalon till i got to forge. I also looked around for good deals haggling at a guy who wanted to sell his axe for 15K, i just said, i only have these items and 3K, then i walked off. He must have been desperate and then agreed to sell it.

I agree that some of the runes are pricey, but they ain't really needed unless you want a 'special build' or a 'UW solo build'.
IF you want a UW solo build - tough luck. too late
IF you want a special build, unfortunely for you your too late, and i'm sorry about that.
But there aren't many of these 'special builds' that people want, hence this game won't decline.

EDIT: You can also try your luck in a UW or FoW group with a normal player. You still have a chance for a shard or ecto to drop. May take some time with a full group - but there you go.

Sunrazor · Aug 08, 2005, 12:48 PM // 12:48

30k. Wow. You could buy what, 2 black dye? Well, there's half your armor dyed.

cat1982 · Aug 08, 2005, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksci

IF you want a UW solo build - tough luck. too late

IF u want a 105 monk build just wait for Anet to roll back the prices on sup runes, its gotta happen at some point

C
Xxx

Kamatsu · Aug 08, 2005, 12:55 PM // 12:55

*sighs* does anyone here know *WHY* anet made the traders buy runes/etc at such crappy low prices?

Because of the botters.

Don't blame anet.. well blame them for not doing enough to prevent/stop the botters. But it's the botters which have caused anet to nerf every farming spot they have heard of, it's botters who caused anet to nerf the traders so the traders only give 25% of their sale price.

if it wasn't for the botters then things wouldn't be the way they are. the botters forced anet to step in and do something to slowdown the pooring in of money into players. Too much money was going into the economy and not nearly enough going out.

Heck, it's basic economics at work - why do you think governments use interest rates and wage increases/decreases to control runaway ecomonies? They do it to reduce the influx of money into the economy.. so less money is going in and more is being taken out. pure and simple economics people.

And thats exactly what's happening in GW. botters (and farmers to an extent.. but farmers per say weren't the real problem) caused a huge influx of gold into players hands (ie income) and spent it and distributed the gold around as they bought & sold to players.. but hardly any of the gold was leaving the system (ie going to traders/crafters)..

So what can be done to slow-down or halt a runaway economy? simple economics state there are 2 things..

1. reduce income - ie nerfing farming spots, reducing the money traders buy stuff for (irl this would be either a halting or reducing of real-world wages)
2. increase government controlled costs to remove money from the economy - ie skyrocketing prices for dyes, runes, etc (in real world terms this would be a rise of interest rates)

These are the only 2 real things that can be done - reduction of income and eliminating money from the "people". Thats what anet is doing. all very simple and basic ecomomics.

and the situation WILL fix itself up eventually. once the balance is set right. It's up to anet to reset the trader's and such. but 1st they need to fix the problem of the botters. Because in the end it was them that caused the inflation of prices and such which caused the gov.. err anet to step in and attempt to halt the runaway ecomony that is GW's.

Whining and complaining won't do any good. *shrugs* does it change government polocies when they raise interest rates on you?

in fact.. it shows just how little people understand about economics and how an ecomy works and can be controlled if/when it gets blown out (like GW's).. *shrugs*

edit - but in the end it all comes back to the fact that botters were running their bots in farming spots and selling back to the traders. They were making a fortune when trader prices were "normal". Because traders gave 50-80% (or somewhere thereabouts, I can't remember exactly).. botters were making a fortune.. bot farm for hours.. go sell runes/dyes to trader for a fortune.. rinse and repeat.

This causes problem A - increased income, thus increased money in economy.

These botters didn't buy from traders, thus their money didn't get removed. They bouught and sold to players (when they weren't bot selling to traders). Because of the increase in wealth from botting (and farming...) prices for items skyrocketed.

but because the wealth was just going from player to player... it was just a re-distribution of wealth. This can only lead to 1 thing - even more increasing prices as the wealthy get more money and want items and thus are either willing to spend way more, or are being asked to spend more.

and thus you have a esculating and bloating and skyrocketing ecomony that's just going to get worse the longer it's left unchecked.

We can already see the issues caused by this - items being sold for 100+K gold. Only reason for prices that high is the huge abundance of gold in players hands. The players pushed the economy to where it is now by demanding items.. paying the huge prices and then asking huge prices for items themselves.

you also saw that b4 anet stepped in prices were, and still are from what I've read, esculating up to 300-400+K.. tho sales of that require trust since anet attempted to nerf the raging economy by limiting players to 100k on-hand.

the 100k limit was an attempt to slowdown an economy that was running faster and faster away.

Let me just say.. if they hadn't nerfed traders or put in the 100k limit... you'd be seeing prices of 1-2+ million for those stormbows and such... and I can just see you whining..'oh why didn't anet step in and stop it b4 it got this rediculious!". well.. be glad that anet did step in. because had they not.. it would have just kept on going and gotten even worse.

All this meant that B. wasn't happening - money was staying in the economy, not being bled out in gold sinks. what we have now is gold sinks - ie huge prices on runes, dye's, etc to bleed the money from the economy.

because as long as there is a huge supply of gold in players hands... and people willing to pay 100k for items.. thats exactly what the economy will be like. It's just all economic's really. if you don't understand it... I can see and understand why you'd whine and complain and such.

Don't blame anet. in fact if it wasn't for them stepping in and nerfing the farming spots and trader's and forcing the character 100k limit... god help us what the state of the economy would be like now... anyone wanna pay 10 million for this cool max damage gold storm bow I got?

and to anyone who says that economics have nothing to do with GW. your just fooling yourself. the traders/player-sales in GW is an economy, and it suffers from the same limitures and movements and such of any real economy. the fact it';s a game and isn't "real" money is irrelevant. in fact.. what is 'real" money? what makes "real" money more valuable that GW gold? it all comes down to perception and whats "acceptable". in GW it's gold.. IRL it's "money". it has no value.. it's just an accepted part of society that it has the value that's printed on it! *chuckles* stew on that! hehehe

asdar · Aug 08, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I don't want to say that everything is easy to get but I do agree with Darksci.

It's very easy to get items that matter, your cheap max stat armor and cheap max damage weapons/max energy staves.

We're talking purely PvE here because runes are easy if you're looking for them for PvP. The runes and the dyes are all Luxury items. You don't need them to play, the major and minor runes are still cheap and it's easy to find runes through fun game play.

I think A-Net has got the correct economy in all cases and I've hated games that went the other way where dye and luxury items were cheap and stat items were high because it did affect game play and a casual player was always behind the curve.

I've gotten three characters completely through the PvE game and taken them everywhere. It hasn't been all that difficult.

SJG · Aug 08, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabby2600

What might be happening, is a guild is buying all the stock of one item, the sale price goes up massivly. so does the buy back price, they sell it all back, then the buy back price drops as stock increases.

I really hope that is the case because if it is then they have just thrown a huge amount of money down the drain. It is not possible to make if a profit if you are the only group making the market. The trader makes a profit on every deal (his buy price is always lower than his sell price), so if you are trading exclusively with the trader you are always going to lose.

It might be possible to make some money by selling to other players (at close to the trader's sell price) or if you managed to start a bubble where other people bought the goods because they were rising in price, but both of these are unlikely.

The trade prices are high because that is how Anet (seem to) want them to be, the algorithm that the traders use is completely responsible for the prices. Crappy prices at the trader's means players are reluctant to sell to them and hence they have a low supply and a high price.

Akimb0 · Aug 08, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

I've gotten three characters completely through the PvE game and taken them everywhere. It hasn't been all that difficult.

but now what do you do?

2_fingers · Aug 08, 2005, 01:24 PM // 13:24

This is what i think. Coming from an economic solution, let the price float within a range - i.e. let the price of an item float within a range that benifits its nature. So perhaps black dye can only be sold by a trader for 6-13p, and Superior runes, other than vigor, warrior absorbtion, should be floated at 2-5p

I still remember the time when my supeior monk rune of healing and protection was around 4k. Now, its 60k. MY suggestion is, if anet ever reads this, is to abolish this idea of "demand n supply " trader thing because it doesnt make sense. The only people who willing to buy the items at exorbitant prices are those who are supremely rich. Problem is that it prevents the newer players from ever acquiring some of the more juicy things like superior runes.

If anet chooses instead to maintain its demand n supply and insist on market forces, then it forgets that even our economy is somehow regulated so that the underprivelged will not be deprived.

I've got a friend who just started playing gw. How am i to tell him that he cant do some of the brillant stuff in this game - the game has been ruined with someone's idea of a demand supply trader?

Unless anet does something really soon - within a matter of days, people are going to start to leave gw. The only people would stay would probably be those damn botters at perdition rock and riverside.

What infuriates me is since when did a glob of ecto become cheaper than a rune which can be found in the actual playing zones?

Boubou · Aug 08, 2005, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksci

YOU DONT NEED a stormbow or chaos axe or fellblade to play this game.
They ONLY look good. When it comes down to it, i'd rather stick to my max shortbow ebon dmg, 13% always dmg, +4 armor than buy a stormbow costing 100K with the same stats.

WHEN PEOPLE SAY LEET weapons they mean the oohhh Shiny weapons.
OF course its going to cost a hell lot, they are the 'bling' weapons.

BUT THEY ARE NOT NEEDED to play this game.

I'm really sick and tired of people whining and complaining about not being able to buy these bling weapons/armors. Hello.. They are meant to cost alot.
And in NO way at all will they effect your playability of the game.

And when you said its hours of farming, not skill. THATS BS.
BECAUSE you can complete this game, without having to farm.
This can be done without all the Bling weapons or armors.

I love this.. I don't have the 15k armor (and I don't want it), I don't want some uber weapons sold by peoples, the collector one is fine with me.

But I do need a sup. healing on my monk.. not for farming, only to play the game.

Everyone said that the grinding/farming is inexistant in Guild Wars. That's not quite true, I want to be able to compete in the arena, I need to farm for several hours just to get enough to buy 1 rune.

I found the background idea of the merchant good, the way it's balanced.. the only problem, the normal player (who will play few hours per week) are disadvantaged compared to the ones playing several hours per day. Everyone are complaining about the market price at the moment, but we should try to suggest something. Some says "divine intervention", it won't fix the problem... if they change the price way down of the runes, what will happen ? Same thing, people will buy them and they will go back up.

The nerf idea? Isn,t bad in fact, put a mesmer with shatter illusion in UW. Everyone is complaining about the nerfing; personnaly I don't think it is so bad, it gives a balancing to the game. I do know of two places where the "nerf bat" will be used in the future one is the UW and the other ... well I won't say it, I didn't saw it on the forum yet. But it's obvious when you're at the right place; look for a bunch of W/Mo, Mo/? and E/Mo lvl 20 going in the same direction ...

And if you feel like flaming me about the nerf bat, tell me the balance of your storage, we'll see where you're in the social hierarchy, a rich.. or a poor.. there is no between! Me, I consider myself as poor.. i cannot buy what I need to play the game correctly. I managed to save 11k !

Let's see what will happen in the future, I hope ANet will do something to sort things up a bit, just adding mesmer in UW will help quite a lot; sure it may block only the Mo/W build posted on this forum last week... but it's the one that made the economy in this state.

Ohh and by the way.. congratulation to the one that created, or worked on that build.. it is really great, the proof, everyone want to use it

Kamatsu · Aug 08, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2_fingers

I still remember the time when my supeior monk rune of healing and protection was around 4k. Now, its 60k. MY suggestion is, if anet ever reads this, is to abolish this idea of "demand n supply " trader thing because it doesnt make sense. The only people who willing to buy the items at exorbitant prices are those who are supremely rich. Problem is that it prevents the newer players from ever acquiring some of the more juicy things like superior runes.

And that is exactly what anet it trying to do remove the gold from those wealthy people. If the players didn't have the wealth to through around liek they do, the prices of items would be "normal". They would be more like what prices were like before ppl farmed and/or botted their way to 1+ million gold and were then willing to fork out 100-500+k for max items, dyes, runes, etc that they wanted.

The whole trader demand'n'supply curve is wacked. but it's designed to try and bleed players of their money. the more money out of the economy is a good thing as it means there is less preassure on the prices, thus stabalizing 'player' prices - the 100K gold carry limit helped as well. The more money on players, the more preassure on the economy as more wealth is used to buy things, thus forcing player prices up as a result.

I feel sorry for new players who think they absolutely have to have or need those rediculiously high priced max weapons or runes or black dye. The fact that to compete in PvE you don't need any of them.. is irrelevant right? You don't need max weapons. you don't need superior runes. /thus really.. what are they missing by not being able to afford it?

it's the players fault this happened really. not anet. all anet have done is put in controls and methods to bleed money from the players. they have halted a bloating economy - do you really believe that had they done nothing then prices for runes and such wouldn't have gotten to 1 million+ gold soon enough?

Quote:

If anet chooses instead to maintain its demand n supply and insist on market forces, then it forgets that even our economy is somehow regulated so that the underprivelged will not be deprived.

The current GW economy is regulated. the traders are regulated. the crafters prices stay the same. drops are there. No need to those uber items unless you absolutely "have" to have them.

it's economic system isn't purely based on supply and demand. Those forces and factor's are there, but there are other aspects to what's driving the anet controlled economy. But thats caused once again by the players themselves.

Quote:

I've got a friend who just started playing gw. How am i to tell him that he cant do some of the brillant stuff in this game - the game has been ruined with someone's idea of a demand supply trader?

Tell him the players ruined it. without the players demanding items and making gold and willing to spend that gold on items then prices wouldn't have skyrocketed. do you really think prices for say storm bows would be 100K now if say the economy had nbeen nerfed like it is now right at the start... when most ppl would be sitting on 40-50K gold lets say? n.. the prices would be 30-50k...

and you know what? players would STILL be whining that anet needs to step in and do something because the economy is crummy nd how can they afford anything. *lol* seriously.

the prices in an economy reflect 2 things.

1. the willingness to spend money
2. the ability to spend that money.

prices in GW skyrocketd because both conditions were met. and as long s they were met, the priceds would increase. As players got 100K+ gold on them.. they started looking for runes, max dmg weapons, gold weapons, etc.. because they wanted them they started asking more.. or offering more.. or being charged more. and because they had the money.. the prices got set at that level.. then people got more money... and thus prices went up even further.

1. ppl were willing to spend more and more gold
2. ppl had the gold to spend more and more.

and thus we had an economy spiralling way out of control with NOTHING to slow it fdown and.or stop it. Blame the players, not anet for this doing. blame economics.. because it would have told you exactly what was to come.

Quote:

Unless anet does something really soon

Had anet not nerfed the traders as well as implemented the 100K limit of on-character gold you'd be seeing prices of 1+ million gold for items. I'd love to see you whining when that happened.. cuz I can tell ya it woulda happened..

and the complaints would be the exact same - how can new players expect to be able to get x million gold to buy runes/weapons/etc!!".. whats the complaint now..... 'how can new players get the gold to buy items/runes/etc".. pfft!

If not for anet things would be a whole lot worse. As it stands now... new players can't get those stupid dyes they don't need... or those superior runes they don't need.. or those max damage weapons they don't need. Don't really see new players missing out on much really

2_fingers · Aug 08, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Interesting kamatsu.

In your whole argument, u hardly even mentioned the float which i was stating. Which is a valid idea in terms of economics (Think currency float - though the consequences to a country are there, I do not believe that problem will plague a virtual game)

Bleeding players? Do u seriously believe it? If i was sitting on a ton of gold right now, i'd still not spend 60k for a rune which i know is worth 5. Its not rational. I'm willing to bet that there are many ppl out there who just wouldnt want to waste cash.

And dyes? Last time i entered the game, blue dyes were at 1k? REd at 5? Cosmetic changes? Raw materials - some are selling way too high for the new guy or the guy who only comes in for like 1-2 hrs everyday or lesser.

While "bleeding" the rich guys, they make the game much more difficult than before. And the irony is that bleeding isnt exactly that successful. If u had 1 million in ur bank, would u need to get superior prot runes to farm? U wouldnt - unless u really did want to farm some more which doesnt make sense because the only people who can afford the runes are the very people who doesnt need them.

Cant u see that to the new players, alot of the proportion of the world has been blocked to them? Inflation never just sticks to one sector.Think about it. I'm not going to give people ideas how to abuse the situation.

While i admire ur courage to defend anet, I think the problem we have to accept is that something is happening. U put the blame on the players, I place the blame on both anet and the players - especially the botters.

Would the price soar to a million? Can u tell for a certainty? No u cant. Neither can I. When u come down to it, what u suggesting is speculative. It cant be proven anyway considering that anet did impose some restirctions.

BTW, in my post, no where did i mention about uber elite weapons. I do have max damage weapons - not stormbows, (got a gold fel blade thou) but all of those were found doing countless unsuccessful runs of some missions (Hell keep

) with pugs, and over the course of ACTUALLY questing n playing the game.

What i find really funny is that people are willing to spend so much of cash on an item which can be found without even trading. Just play the game, things drop.

MSecorsky · Aug 08, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Simple solution would be for merchants to get resupplied (from an unknown to us, central source, ala Walmart) something like twice a week. Also tie the merchants buy rate to the merchants current stock, the less he has, the more he'll pay up to 80% of his sell rate, which is of course tied to demand.

Besides, it would be cool to see supply caravans in town restocking merchants.

Before you think of the uber-rich depleting the entire resupply the moment it happens, leave the caravans in town an entire day, and while they're in town the merchant can't run out of an item, so merchant sell prices don't have to increase.

Base ranges for items will likely need to be set.

4thVariety · Aug 08, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I read multiple times that you say GW was a free economy.
IT IT NOT
in a free economy the amount of money is STRICTLY LIMITED.
a state has to get money by raising taxes, it can't just print new bills when the old ones are spend. doing this anyway would lead to QUICK and CATASTROPHIC, and IRREVERSIBLE breakdown. (like in 1920ies germany/it took a whole new currency to stop inflation we don't what that in GW now do we?)
however GW generates unlimited amounts of money. through this people can affort ANY prices as long as they generate enough money. and herein lies the problem. regular players are so far behind in terms of Gold per hour that they completely drop out of the market.
now the "free" market is turned into one controlled by the faring powerhouses only. It was like that before, and that's the way it is now. Gold has completely lost its value and baseline commodities are too expensive to fit in the original game balance.
and as soon as this inflation rockets prices of baseline items like we see now, the economy is FULL COLLAPSE ALREADY.
let's face it, Anet had a way of doing it and it worked somewhat fine for a while, but now it failed completely. starting now is starting in a game in which you can't participate in the market due to prices. sure, you can buy ID kits but everything else is now off limits.
I wonder which fool ever thought that players would sell back to merchants anyway. if you don't need common materials you don't pick em up. you sure as hell don't sell them for a dime or waste time trying to sell them for 10GP a pice in Ascalon city.

the only ones profiting from this are professional farmers who sell off for real money on ebay. and why are they doing this?
because in contrast to GW-Gold the dollar has actually a real value.
if the virtual items had a much value as the GW gold (nil) you wouldn't trade them for real money now would you.

THE SOLUTION
delete all Gold in the game, Reset prices, remove all the gold drops (then people HAVE to sell back), problem solved.

this was the ONLY way to stop inflation in germany back then, after that, ever since and also tomorrow.

because only then do you have all the values that make up inflation in control:
the amount of money (no monster drops, and so the merchants can control the amount in circulation), circulation speed (measurable for the first time, and GNP (with enforced backtrading you can now even measure it.)

controling these 3 factors is eliminating hyperinflationproblem real good real fast.

Xonic · Aug 08, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

easiest fix to the economy is not buy it.

black dye costs 50k? omg, I need to farm 10 hours for a black dye! econ is messed up!

Or, I can not buy it today, and eventually it'll come down to a more affortable price.

if it doesn't, well, if everyone can afford 50k, I can afford 50k to make me look black someday.

Ristaron · Aug 08, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I kinda skipped the second page, but here's my two cents.
Kamatsu posted that botters are the reason the economy is falling apart, yet ANet is constantly banning bots, and therefore fewer of them are still gaining money. Yet the prices of things like runes and dyes are still soaring, hell I saw black dye for 20k earlier this week.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - now that botters are not rampant, DELETE THE VENDORS! RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO! Let PEOPLE decide their economy, not some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NPC who is currently buying for 1/1000 of what they're selling for. It's stupid, the NPCs are ripping people off more than fellow players are... and that's friken sad.

Keep in the merchant, but for the love of the game get rid of the friken vendors.
I used to sell minor runes for 300each. Then the rune trader came along and you could buy them for 125, sell them for 25. Terrible ratio, but I lived with it. Then the prices SOARED, and now you can buy a minor for 600+, and yet only sell it for... you guessed it... 25!
I don't want to sell everything to people! Half of them are dim-witted RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO sticks who try to rip me off when I believe 100% in fair trade.
Me: "Selling max dmg Fiery Dragon Sword - Offer"
McBitch: "10g"
*Block McBitch*
Me: "Selling max dmg Fiery Dragon Sword - Offer"
McBitch (In all chat): "Ristaron! Why didn't you sell me your sword?!"
Me: "Because you didn't bid high enough."
McBitch: "Ristaron overprices!"

Then, my favourite:

<McBitch's 12-year-old Friend>: "Dude sell him your RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing sword!"
<McBitch's Other 12-year-old Friend>: "Why didn't you sell my friend your sword?"

Except, they'd all be talking like 'u r a fag 4 not seling my freind dat swurd!'

Xonic · Aug 08, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

I kinda skipped the second page, but here's my two cents.
Kamatsu posted that botters are the reason the economy is falling apart, yet ANet is constantly banning bots, and therefore fewer of them are still gaining money. Yet the prices of things like runes and dyes are still soaring, hell I saw black dye for 20k earlier this week.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - now that botters are not rampant, DELETE THE VENDORS! RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO! Let PEOPLE decide their economy, not some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NPC who is currently buying for 1/1000 of what they're selling for. It's stupid, the NPCs are ripping people off more than fellow players are... and that's friken sad.

Keep in the merchant, but for the love of the game get rid of the friken vendors.
I used to sell minor runes for 300each. Then the rune trader came along and you could buy them for 125, sell them for 25. Terrible ratio, but I lived with it. Then the prices SOARED, and now you can buy a minor for 600+, and yet only sell it for... you guessed it... 25!
I don't want to sell everything to people! Half of them are dim-witted RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO sticks who try to rip me off when I believe 100% in fair trade.
Me: "Selling max dmg Fiery Dragon Sword - Offer"
McBitch: "10g"
*Block McBitch*
Me: "Selling max dmg Fiery Dragon Sword - Offer"
McBitch (In all chat): "Ristaron! Why didn't you sell me your sword?!"
Me: "Because you didn't bid high enough."
McBitch: "Ristaron overprices!"

how do the traders prevent fair trade??

MSecorsky · Aug 08, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

OK... enough is enough.

What is this red engine thing people keep talking about?

wiz12268 · Aug 08, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

The only way to really "fix" the economy is to have a set amount of gold in game. Meaning for every registered accout say there is 500K gold in the system. With an infinite amount of gold that is why inflation occurs. But if there were a finite amount that could be used, the pricing would surely shift to a supply/demand format which isn't happening right now.

As for pricing, people want to look cool, if they have enough money they can do it. If they don't they won't I guess. Not having that storm bow isn't going to hurt you. Having a +26 fortitude or hale isn't going to kill you either, by not having PERFECT in no ways means you can't complete the game or compete PvP. But that isn't really an inflation issue. It is a markettng/pricing but it actually more supply/demand based than the economyitslf. The only reason the prices are outrageous is because there is so much excess gopld.

Personally I wouldn't spend hundreds of thousands to get something, and I have about a million in gold, 50+ ectos and shards, and more than a few rubies and 2 full sets of Superior monk runes. I have too much money. But I am not going to "waste" it by buying crap that just looks good. I find the stuff I use. I might buy an upgrade or somthing if I can't get it, but that is the extent.

But if I don't spnd that money what good is it going to do? I am going to have to start buying the ectos, and rare materials or just drop gold on the ground. I think the most you can have is 1000 plat and 50K per toon. I am almost there. So then what?

GUess I could give it away, but what good will that do, it will make it worse, I didn't get anything given to me, dam I had to do most missions and quest with henches because I couldn't get a PUG. I guess fssure armor for all my characters, but I don't like the looks of any of it.

Maybe allowing people to "buy" special skins or graphics for guild hall buildings or something. Not sure of the technical aspects of that, but something really cool.

Unless of course they put a ceiling on the amount of money inthe system. Probably not fair to the newcomers, but if the money keeps getting generated, it will get worse before it gets better, and sooner or later the rich will spend money and put that gold back in thesystem.

Lorelei · Aug 08, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

RED ENGINE GO!

Oh, it didn't do a reverse translate into a swear word

You are a good person if you never knew what RED ENGINE GO stood for, because you probably never swear. I stumbled on the RED ENGINE GO when I was trying to rhyme wars with wh0res.

Kamatsu · Aug 09, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

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Originally Posted by 2_fingers

Interesting kamatsu.

In your whole argument, u hardly even mentioned the float which i was stating. Which is a valid idea in terms of economics (Think currency float - though the consequences to a country are there, I do not believe that problem will plague a virtual game)

Yes, I ignored the float to discuss other points. I meant no offense, and your whole float idea is a valid idea and could work. I don't believe that the idea fits in with what anet were trying to do. Although it probably would be more successfull because it would control the prices, which would encourage the people with the money to actually use the money.

Because as you point out later on, the people with the money still really aren't spending the money... so the bleeding isn't happening. however, if prices were regulated and had a floating range that was "reasonable", they'd more than likely spend the gold and thus help remove some of the gold from the players.

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Bleeding players? Do u seriously believe it? If i was sitting on a ton of gold right now, i'd still not spend 60k for a rune which i know is worth 5. Its not rational. I'm willing to bet that there are many ppl out there who just wouldnt want to waste cash.

Yep, I believe it. Because of the way price's can work - the more money people have, the higher the prices will go. It's simple logic. We know it and we've seen it happen in GW - as people got more money, they started wanting those uber 13337 weapons and such.. and started offering and paying more... thus prices went up.

You bleed the gold out of people and suddenly they won't want to spend 100-300+K gold on an item anymore (if bled enough) because they might not be able to easily make the money again... thus prices will drop as a result.

1. willingness to spend money
2. ability to spend money

when 1 & 2 are met the prices go up. When either is not met prices stabilize and/or drop down till both conditions are met again. At leats in theory thats how it works

Edit - a classic example is real-estate. We've all seen booms in real estate and then watched the prices on houses, land, etc go skyrocketing up. Why? It's because the demand for the properties is up (and in this case supply can be counted as irrelevant, but the less supply the harder the prices will be pushed up).. people are willing to spend the money on the properties.. and the prices keep going up as long as the ability to pay the increased costs is there.

so the market booms.. prices go up and up as it continues. all because people are willing & able to spend the money. However...

We all know real estate booms are typically followed by "crash's" where prices slump and go backwards.. never as far as they were, but they still reduce. why?

Simple, they reduce because either people become less willing or less able to afford the higher prices. Have you ever wondered why government's raise interest rates when the housing sector is booming and going out of control? They do this because interest rates make expenses higher.,.. thus people are less willing to spend money and have less money to spend. Because of this prices can't keep on rising.. they will stabalize at the point where 1 & 2 are met again - and this usually leads to a small drop in prices.

Real estate is a classic example of the 1 & 2 principle in place. as long as 1 & 2 are met.. we are in boom time and prices go up. Government steps in and raises interest rates and suddenly 1 & 2 are not met.. so prices drop till they are met again and start back on the upward spiral (albiet not as fast as in boom time..)

and thats exacly what's happened in GW with the prices of storm bows, runes, etc in the player influenced market. /edit

Problem is.. your right. who in their right mind will spend 60K on a rune? I Can assure you the rich most likely aren't.. and so the whole attempt to bleed these players of their gold and reduce the preassure on the prices fails. The whole idea of what I think anet tried failed because they failed to take human nature into account - only a few of the people with the money would be willing to spend outragious amounts for what they want. Human's will always look for the best deal so as to spend less money...

Which is why your idea of floating value's for items within a fixed range would actually work, because the prices would be fixed and at a reasonable level.. players would use their money to buy dyes and runes and experiment and change things around .. and wouldn't notice the bleeding of gold out of the system.

As for player prices... *shrugs*

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And dyes? Last time i entered the game, blue dyes were at 1k? REd at 5? Cosmetic changes? Raw materials - some are selling way too high for the new guy or the guy who only comes in for like 1-2 hrs everyday or lesser.

dye's = not needed. I'm not too fussed... but thats just me. However the material traders can be a worry because not many new players might know about salvaging drops for materials and so buy from the material trader.. and some of the prices I've seen have been staggering. I feel sorry for the new players to be honest when I see some of the prices..

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While "bleeding" the rich guys, they make the game much more difficult than before. And the irony is that bleeding isnt exactly that successful. If u had 1 million in ur bank, would u need to get superior prot runes to farm? U wouldnt - unless u really did want to farm some more which doesnt make sense because the only people who can afford the runes are the very people who doesnt need them.

*laughs* and thats the exact problem here. The people who can afford the prices won't spend the plat anyways because they either don't need them or aren't willing to spend stupid amounts on the runes. If the prices were more reasonable, I can bet you that people would be more wiling to burn gold on runes to try different builds with different runes..

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Cant u see that to the new players, alot of the proportion of the world has been blocked to them? Inflation never just sticks to one sector.Think about it. I'm not going to give people ideas how to abuse the situation.

The only portion blocked to them is the portion they don't need

Seriously tho, you don't need any of the sup runes or max dmg weapons or such to play PvE.. the problem comes as to what do you do afterwards? When you have done PvE 1,2,x many times and want those max dmg weapons & runes & such..

As it stands now .. unless you afarm for gold you'll never be able to get it unless you find someone selling them way below normal price - I have 3 chars, 1 in desert, 1 in shiverspeak & 1 pre-searing.. I have farmed slightly and mapped everything.. but all I have is ~23K gold. Won't find me buying any sup runes or max dmg weapons anytime soon..

but this problem is mainly player caused inflation on prices. as mentioned about in ! & 2 :P

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While i admire ur courage to defend anet, I think the problem we have to accept is that something is happening. U put the blame on the players, I place the blame on both anet and the players - especially the botters.

I wasn't quite defending anet. What I was doing was trying to point out that it's not solely anets fault. All I see here on these boards is whining and whinging and complaining about how anet have ruined the economy.. how anet have stuffed it up.. etc. I was just trying to show that anet is not the sole problem and cause of the crazy market we have.

I agree with you in that it's both anet & the players fault. I just have a issue with people just continuiously and blinkeredly blaming anet for this problem - yes anet could have moved to fix things faster.. and a whole lot better. but we mustn't forget that it was the players who caused the rampart player market..

and 1 cause is unlimited money. For as long as money is unlimited, inflation will keep on rising and prices and such will keep on rising. *shrugs* what can be done?

We need more appropriate money sinks in the game to remove the money - like more armor sets to buy, more reasonable prices runes and dye traders, maybe npc's to change faces and hair style and color.. "junk" items for weddings, etc. - this will help bleed the gold from the players.. as long as the prices are reasonable (and fixed in a given range).

Removing gold drops is another - force players to sell drops to npc's or players. That doesn't remove unlimited gold, but it will have a slow-down effect on the amount of gold comming into the system (remember, 1 way to slow a runaway economy is to halt or reduce real wages...)

Wiping player gold is another.. but anet will *NEVER* do that because that would peeve waaaayyyy too many people off and that would kill the game IMO.

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Would the price soar to a million? Can u tell for a certainty? No u cant. Neither can I. When u come down to it, what u suggesting is speculative. It cant be proven anyway considering that anet did impose some restirctions.

you are correct. I can't prove that prices would have reached 1+ million. It's speculative, but based upon sound economic theory *shrugs* But since anet did put in restrictions it's a whole lot harder to prove since few people would be willing to trust that kind of deal.

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BTW, in my post, no where did i mention about uber elite weapons. I do have max damage weapons - not stormbows, (got a gold fel blade thou) but all of those were found doing countless unsuccessful runs of some missions (Hell keep

) with pugs, and over the course of ACTUALLY questing n playing the game.

I know you didn't mention them, but whenever you head to any town you'll see ppl seling or wanting to buy uber 1337 weapons. heh I just mentioned them purely because it's a common ground we can all see - ie ppl selling/buying stormbows for 100K. We know it happens... and we know why/how the pricews got the rediculious :P

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What i find really funny is that people are willing to spend so much of cash on an item which can be found without even trading. Just play the game, things drop.

lol people are lazy.. and lazy people with money = high prices. They'd rather spend 100K buying it than going out and spending who knows how many hours, days, weeks, etc mindlessly farming to get the drop. they want those items.. and they have the money (note 1. & 2. points I've made above..) and thus they buy em.